Philosophy Philmmaking

[Tasty Fish Lips]

In the thread for the film "Extraordinary", miker wrote:

My third thought is that great artists don't copy ideas, they steal ideas and make them their own...

...just remember that films are about people and you soon realise that good story and good acting are of critical importance when suspending disbelief.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with the last point. And, frankly, you're in trouble if you do not. Creating, in conjunction with intelligent actors, believable characters full of subtle detail and nuance whose actions both define who they are and drive the story, etc., etc.

But the first point, about stealing, I disagree. But I would imagine it's a generalization. Surely an artist need not ever steal in order to create art worthy of an audiences precious time, or to create what some call "great art." I also suspect one's individual definition of what "stealing" is will play a part on whether you disagree or not.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 16, 2005 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Tasty Fish Lips ]</font>

[jb_617]

Well...Miker quotes that one all the time, I think it's Picasso.

Anyway, I broadly agree that pretty much all new work (in whatever medium) is built on the work that went before it.

The only reason to use "steal" rather than "influenced by..." is because most people don't give any credit to the person they ripped off.

This is probably to conceal the fact that they are a no-talent hack [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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And please don't spell it Philm... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[MatJimMood]

Originally posted by jb.:

The only reason to use "steal" rather than "influenced by..." is because most people don't give any credit to the person they ripped off.

This is probably to conceal the fact that they are a no-talent hack [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spot on.

People who don't acknowledge their influences tend to be the people who are most guilty of unoriginality.

In most other artforms people are less worried about admitting their influences because it is common practise to carefully study, and directly copy past masters as a way to develop indiviually and to develop the artform.

This isn't as common in filmmaking so it lead to insecurities about the creation of new ideas.

[jb_617]

I really couldn't agree more! I have a friend with a Ph.D in fine art and he told me that basically when you start learning fine art, you copy the masters over and over until you understand WHY it's so good. Then they let you loose on your own.

And it's true that in most other expressive arts (take music for instance) naming your influences has no stigma. I mean how many bands do that? Most of them I think.

The weird thing in film is that everybody has this big hangup about being "original". It's plastered all over everything. Now I come to think of it, why don't CD cases have quotes from reviews written on them like DVD boxes? Oh that's right...because you take music or you leave it most serious artists couldn't give a fuck if you like them or not. But filmmakers have an unbelieveable need to cram their product down your throat and tell you how "original" and "unique" and "daring" it is.

It's a load of old crap if you ask me.


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"Fuck the artist." - Bill Hicks

[richard.fisher]

I don't think I ever deliberately steal ideas, but certainly I have written stuff, and then on reading it back I see how similar it is to good work that I admire. While writting the climax of Anamnesis I was thinking 'this is fucking genius' and then that night realised it plays out like the climax of Jedi (minus the Ewoks). I never set out to steal the end of Jedi, but I'm sure that when I've seen a film enough times, that it begins to permeate not only my writing, but the rest of my life (who hasn't found themselves talking to their grandparents in the style of Mr. Pink). Usually the times when I see I have clearly been influenced, it slips the audience by. And then when I produce something I think is genuinely original, someone says 'Have you ever seen ________?' Which drives me mad (but not so much that it stops me doing it to other people).

[jbridges]

Funny, reminds me of this famous quote:

"I steal from every movie ever made."

quentin tarantino


The way I interpret this is that while not literally stealing the idea, he is taking these stories and telling them another way. Maybe another style. But what ever he does he knows how to make something cool.

Just thoughts.....

[miker]

the best theives tend to be those in the advertising industry (or should that be counterfeiters since they generally copy rather than steal?)

anyway, the way I interepret that picasso quote that I paraphrase so eloquently is that if you are going to be inspired by existing work, make sure that it is only the starting point and not the end point.

[richard.fisher]

Originally posted by jb.:
when you start learning fine art, you copy the masters over and over until you understand WHY it's so good.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Has anyone ever tried directly copying a scene they admire, to see what they can lean from it? Gus Van Sant (sp?) remade Psycho pretty much shot for shot, and everyone asked 'but why?' Perhaps this is what he was trying.

[Tasty Fish Lips]

For those of you who believe that "stealing" is a common and acceptable practice in filmmaking - would you care to share some examples of work you've created that was stolen, no matter how big or small.

Also, do you think it is necessary to constantly steal for "great" filmmaking? Do you think it is deliberate or done so without even realizing?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 17, 2005 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Tasty Fish Lips ]</font>

[MatJimMood]

Originally posted by Tasty Fish Lips:
For those of you who believe that "stealing" is a common and acceptable practice in filmmaking - would you care to share some examples of work you've created that was stolen, no matter how big or small.

Also, do you think it is necessary to constantly steal for "great" filmmaking? Do you think it is deliberate or done so without even realizing?

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ December 17, 2005 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Tasty Fish Lips ]</font></font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think anyone is literally saying that they consciously directly steal from films or that it would be acceptable if they did. Saying 'steal' is just a slightly pugnacious (and at the same time self deprecating) way of saying you've been influenced by a piece of work.

So in that context I would definetly say its necessary to constantly 'steal', and not just from other filmmakers. I'm probably more influenced by musicians and painters than any particular director.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 17, 2005 11:42 AM: Message edited by: MatJimMood ]</font>